Post from Hi, I'm Joe.:
Hezbollah has the blood of innocent Lebanese on its hands.
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Check out this story. Confirms what many of us already knew - Hezbollah, by its presence, is condemning innocent Lebanese civilians to death.

Israel, meanwhile, is doing the noble thing; they're calling off their attacks for 48 hours to investigate what appears to have been a horrific mistake in their bombing campaign, resulting in the deaths of innocent civilians.

For the "both sides are at fault" crowd, let me know when Hezbollah calls off its rockets because they're distressed they killed civilians with them.

One side shows its imperfect humanity, making tough - and sometimes wrong - decisions under constant pressure and attack from enemies who want to wipe it off the map.

The other side is behaving in a manner that is utterly inhuman.

Reader Comments
  
Hm.
By Superduperficial Jul 30th 2006 at 9:09 pm EDT
Link

Israel is once again behaving in a principled fashion in a tough situation.
  
Logicalicious
By August J. Pollak Jul 31st 2006 at 10:18 am EDT
No, I'm pretty sure a bunch of paramedics have the blood of innocent Lebanese on their hands, what with having to drag 56 dead women and children out of a building after, you know, Israel launched a missile at it.
Re: Logicalicious
By Superduperficial Jul 31st 2006 at 2:24 pm EDT
Israel wouldn't be attacking those areas if Hezbollah weren't operating out of them. Hezbollah made the choice to bring down the bombs on that area by where they decided to set up shop.

Side note: It's now emerging that the building collapsed something like eight hours after the Israeli strike? Interesting if true, though obviously it's too soon to tell conclusively.
Re: Logicalicious
By August J. Pollak Jul 31st 2006 at 2:58 pm EDT
Israel wouldn't be attacking those areas if Hezbollah weren't operating out of them. Hezbollah made the choice to bring down the bombs on that area by where they decided to set up shop.

No, Israel wouldn't be attacking those areas with missiles if it was concerned with killing lots of innocent people. See, Hezbollah chose to build a base of operations in a civilian area. Israel made the choice to fire missiles into a civilian area and kill 56 women and children. I am inclined to believe the building in that area collapsed not because of Hezbollah building it there, but from the massive explosive objects Israel fired into it. They were missiles, which are designed to blow up things. Amazingly, after Israel fired massive explosive objects into a building, the building was destroyed, killing 56 women and children.
Re: Logicalicious
By Superduperficial Jul 31st 2006 at 7:08 pm EDT
See, Hezbollah chose to build a base of operations in a civilian area. Israel made the choice to fire missiles into a civilian area and kill 56 women and children.



Hezbollah made that choice for them - not only with this present action, but by showing in the past that backing down only encourages them.

Israel has backed down many times in the past; each time, Hezbollah had the choice to reward that admirable restraint on Israel's part with a little mutual rapprochement - and they chose not to. They reap what they sow.

Assuming they're not intentionally targetting civilians or being intentionally negligent, Israel is not responsible for the collateral effects of the weapons they use - Hezbollah is, because this crisis is entirely their fault.

Once they escalated the situation such that it would require an Israeli military response, Israel's hands were tied - they knew from previous experience that any leniency with Hezbollah only encourages them.

If the people of Southern Lebanon don't like it - well, I feel for them, and part of my feeling for them is that I hope they've learned the inevitable consequences of their voting for Hezbollah and allowing them refuge within their society. When they want to wise up, renounce any and all armed resistance to Israel as illegitimate, and join the peaceful global economy, we'll welcome them with open arms.
Re: Logicalicious
By jr Jul 31st 2006 at 9:37 pm EDT
Another upcoming post topic if I get the time: how is it possible to think that Israel isn't throwing Hezbollah into the briar patch?

Putting it another way: anytime a civilian dies, on either side of the conflict (be it an Israeli civilian killed by a rocket attack or suicide bomber, or a Lebanese civilian killed by an Israeli airstrike), Hezbollah gains from it. By placing their armaments in civilian areas, Hezbollah stands to gain even from Israeli attacks that destroy their rockets. "Collateral damage" in this sense is an inaccurate label, as the phrase has the connotation of creating a loss for all parties. Civilian deaths in Lebanon are not really a loss for Hezbollah, are they?
Re: Logicalicious
By mattbors Aug 1st 2006 at 12:05 am EDT
If the people of Southern Lebanon don't like it - well, I feel for them, and part of my feeling for them is that I hope they've learned the inevitable consequences of their voting for Hezbollah and allowing them refuge within their society. When they want to wise up, renounce any and all armed resistance to Israel as illegitimate, and join the peaceful global economy, we'll welcome them with open arms.



I'm sure they realize now how this is all their fault. They should just wise up.
Re: Logicalicious
By August J. Pollak Aug 1st 2006 at 10:10 am EDT
Once they escalated the situation such that it would require an Israeli military response, Israel's hands were tied - they knew from previous experience that any leniency with Hezbollah only encourages them.


And then Israel. Fired a missile. Into a building. Killing 56 women and children.
  
...
By mattbors Jul 31st 2006 at 1:13 pm EDT
For the "both sides are at fault" crowd, let me know when Hezbollah calls off its rockets because they're distressed they killed civilians with them.



Of course, Hezbollah doesn't care about killing civilians. If Israel only behaves better than terrorists, they are noble? Not a very high standard of morality.
Re: ...
By Superduperficial Jul 31st 2006 at 2:26 pm EDT

Of course, Hezbollah doesn't care about killing civilians. If Israel only behaves better than terrorists, they are noble? Not a very high standard of morality.



They're not just behaving "better than the terrorists", they're behaving better than the terrorists by far. By threatening Israel's safety, Hezbollah has left them with little choice but to embark on their present course.
Re: ...
By jr Jul 31st 2006 at 2:43 pm EDT
While I'm inclined to support Israeli action, I don't buy the line that this was their only option, and I certainly don't buy the line that they shouldn't be subjected to comparisons with their opponents. Was it not one of our wiser scholars that noted the issue isn't whether or not we're the same, but whether or not we're different enough? To have so many civilians killed as a result of policies from either side is a bad thing, and while we agree one side bears more of the burden, surely we also agree that neither side is blameless.
Re: ...
By Superduperficial Jul 31st 2006 at 7:11 pm EDT
Was it not one of our wiser scholars that noted the issue isn't whether or not we're the same, but whether or not we're different enough?



That's the whole point; Israel is different enough from Hezbollah. The prime difference being that when left alone, they bring peace, stability, and liberty to the region. When their enemies are left alone, they lead authoritarian theocracies into endless bloodshed.

That's different enough to me.


To have so many civilians killed as a result of policies from either side is a bad thing



On this, we completely agree! Nobody's saying it's a good thing when civilians die. It's terrible - and, as stated earlier, it's Hezbollah's fault no matter who dropped the actual bomb.


while we agree one side bears more of the burden, surely we also agree that neither side is blameless.



If you can make a compelling argument as to how Israel forced Hezbollah to kidnap and murder Israeli soldiers, I'll buy that Israel has some of the blame. Otherwise..?
Re: ...
By jr Jul 31st 2006 at 9:40 pm EDT
If this conflict were entirely based around the last three weeks, rather than the last three decades, your request would be reasonable. But like the South didn't force Sherman to torch Atlanta, Hezbollah didn't force Israel to launch a massive counteroffensive--those are simply the tactics that were selected by the military leadership to achieve their aims. And I happen to think, in the case of the counterattack that Israel has launched, it's probably counterproductive with little long-term benefit to be gained.
Re: ...
By Superduperficial Aug 1st 2006 at 2:04 am EDT
If this conflict were entirely based around the last three weeks, rather than the last three decades, your request would be reasonable.



Armed resistance to Israel wasn't legitimate three decades ago, either.
Re: ...
By simeontalley Aug 1st 2006 at 3:00 am EDT
I dont think blame can be easily assessed to either side, this is a truly complex situation and it appears that the so called sustainable peaceful solution is becoming murkier.

Israel has a right to defend itself and to secure its borders, all sovereign nations do but its actions may increase the external threat that exists. Yet at the heart of this dispute and most disputes involving Israel is the Israeli-Arab conflict i.e. the plight of the Palestinians. Hezbollah for politicals reasons among others links itself to the Palestinian cause. The original border skirmish when the soldiers were kidnapped was to force the release of either Hezbollah of Hamas prisoners.

Hezbollah is only considered a terrorist group by the US and Israel. Among other nations it is recognized as a legitimate resistance group. It formed out of resistance to Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon. Hezbollah stature in the Arab world is increasing because of the damage Israeli attacks are inflicting upon Lebanese civilians. What at the beginning was criticized by some Arab countries now has united many in anti-American and Israeli sentiment.

I dont think anyone can legitimate Hezbollah's action or its ability currently thru its armed presence on the border to threaten Israel. Yet the response by Israel 1) is extremely disproportional and taking a heavy toll on civilians and 2) may serve to be counterproductive in that it galvanizes sympathy for Hezbollah among the Lebanese. Israeli military actions are counterproductive. I think they are endangering a political agreement, military the complete destruction of Hezbollah is not a reality while also the complete disarmermant of the same may not be something that is possible. And finally morally the rationalizing away of innocent life on either side of this conflict is immoral. Fighting a terrorist group or fighting a cause of what some to believe liberation does not justify the killing of innocent life. Israel should have more of the burden of responsibility and use caution because it is a nation-state.
Re: ...
By jr Aug 1st 2006 at 10:28 am EDT
Hezbollah was formed as an armed resistance group during the occupation of southern Lebanon.

Not that I don't think they're wrong, but that would make them illegitimate...how?
My two cents...
By ToddHill Aug 1st 2006 at 10:03 am EDT
It is one thing to defend yourself, which Israel has a right to do, but it is another thing to arrogantly believe that bulldozing an entire country is somehow going to bring an end to the violence and bloodshed while simultaneously bringing peace to a region that has long been in chaos before Israel even existed. It is the same ignorant policy the United States deployed in Iraq.

The problem with US policies and Israeli policies in the Middle East is a complete lack, or even ignorance, in understanding the culture and people of the region. They ignore history and attempt to rewrite it instead with precision guided bombs and underwhelming amonts of ground forces. The violence and blood that results from this flows from civilians and is then plastered on Arabic television stations and newspapers throughout the region. It then becomes propaganda indirectly for terrorist organizations that civilians then see as their army against massive empirial aggressors. It only emboldens the enemy to continue their rag-tag efforts to destroy these aggressors.

If Israel wanted to do the job right they should have done it with overwhelming amounts of ground forces immediatly and completely abandon the precision strikes. It is a cheap way of attempting to fight an unconventional war against an unconventional enemy. Now they have dragged this situation on for weeks and they have whithered away any sympathy they had in the beginning of this effort. Remember, Arab nations denounced the Hezbollah attacks in the beginning, and they have since turned and denounced Israel.

When the mess in Iraq and Afghanistan is combined with the mess in Lebanon, coupled with the support of Iran to all of the "enemies" in these states, you have a recipe for disaster that is frightening. And really it is all because of ignorance and arrogance.

TMH
  
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