Enough Roe-bashing
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Its seems a few people around here and elsewhere in progressive wings think that defending Roe v. Wade is screwing up the priorities of the Democratic party. First of all, Roe still is broadly supported. According to polls such as this one, it is supported by a majority--two-thirds--of Americans. This has been a consistent finding.

So to progressive men against Roe: it's not Roe that's keeping Democrats out of office what's keeping us out of office is not having the cajones--pardon my French..err Spanish--to stand up for what we believe, on workers rights, on health care, on foreign policy, on education. We don't talk about what we believe, and that's what's getting us. Roe is the least of our worries in this regard.

Furthermore, Roe is not a blatantly bad legal decision or even a mediocre one as some allege, at least not its fundamental holding. The argument often made against Roe is that there is no fundamental right to abortion, and that the matter should be sent back to states for legislating. However, opponents of Roe seem to avoid or take little issue with the point that any law made against abortion (or against anything for that matter) must pass a burden of Constitutionality, i.e. not violating fundamental rights. Thus, even if a law is popular, it can be unconstitutional, and there should be a valid state interest behind the law.

Roe holds that a right to privacy is protected under the Constitution. Justice Blackmun in the 1973 opinion explains it thusly,
This right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment's concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or, as the District Court determined, in the Ninth Amendment's reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman's decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy.


And cites precedent:
The Constitution does not explicitly mention any right of privacy. In a line of decisions, however, going back perhaps as far as Union Pacific R. Co. v. Botsford, 141 U.S. 250, 251 (1891), the Court has recognized that a right of personal privacy, or a guarantee of certain areas or zones of privacy, does exist under the Constitution. In varying contexts, the Court or individual Justices have, indeed, found at least the roots of that right [lists amendments].

These decisions make it clear that only personal rights that can be deemed "fundamental" or "implicit in the concept of ordered liberty," Palko v. Connecticut, 302 U.S. 319, 325 (1937), are included in this guarantee of personal privacy. They also make it clear that the right has some extension to activities relating to marriage, Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1, 12 (1967); procreation, Skinner v. Oklahoma, 316 U.S. 535, 541-542 (1942); contraception, Eisenstadt v. Baird, 405 U.S. at 453-454; id. at 460, 463-465 [p153] (WHITE, J., concurring in result); family relationships, Prince v. Massachusetts, 321 U.S. 158, 166 (1944); and childrearing and education, Pierce v. Society of Sisters, 268 U.S. 510, 535 (1925), Meyer v. Nebraska, supra.

Despite acknowledging the possible presence of a state interest in Roe, the opinion goes on to explain why, this interest is outweighed by the personal interest of a woman considering an abortion:
The detriment that the State would impose upon the pregnant woman by denying this choice altogether is apparent. Specific and direct harm medically diagnosable even in early pregnancy may be involved. Maternity, or additional offspring, may force upon the woman a distressful life and future. Psychological harm may be imminent. Mental and physical health may be taxed by child care. There is also the distress, for all concerned, associated with the unwanted child, and there is the problem of bringing a child into a family already unable, psychologically and otherwise, to care for it. In other cases, as in this one, the additional difficulties and continuing stigma of unwed motherhood may be involved. All these are factors the woman and her responsible physician necessarily will consider in consultation.

Let's remember, we live in a country where laws--which are in essence restrictions on rights--cannot just be made for the heck of it. There must be a reason, and that reason must be good enough to withstand the test of whether the law impinges on Constitutionally protected rights.

Therefore, the idea of making laws against abortion or other reproductive rights may not seem grave to some. However, the decision of Roe brings up the importance of a need to weigh state interest against individual rights, and, in my opinion, sufficiently explains the importance in this case of protecting the right. This is where a personal appeal comes in: if it is you, your sister, girlfriend, or so forth who one day may have to face an unintended pregnancy, or a pregnancy that is causing health problems, that individual's interest is much greater than the state's

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You are wrong
By edhula3 Jul 25th 2005 at 2:54 pm EDT
The fact is the SCOTUS should not have even heard the argument. In fact it should have stopped at the state level.

Many laws against abortion that go through the SCOTUS for constitutionality are often related to very, academic, specific instances, and not with an overarching question of should abortion be allowed.
Explain
By elainethefirst Jul 25th 2005 at 4:22 pm EDT
b/c I'm not exactly sure what you mean by abortion laws that go to the court being very "academic, specific" instances." Roe was fought in the Appeals and SCOTUS on the grounds that Texas abortion laws violated several Constitutional amendments.
Still wrong
By edhula3 Jul 25th 2005 at 7:10 pm EDT
What I mean is that now when cases about abortion go before the Supreme Court on abortion it is not, should we be allowed to have an abortion. It is what would the implications be from this if we have in loco parentis laws in effect, thereby giving a greater deal of privacy to a 16 year old who, in anyother circumstance has no rights anyway, can they be allowed then? Perhaps you are right, academic is not a good term, what I meant is that it is things academics study.

You probably also assume I am against abortion because I think states should handle it (that is after all what it says to do in the Constitution). I am not against abortion as a matter of fact. I won't even give at any spin. Perhaps this will offer more clarity on how I (correctly) view the SCOTUS: Dredd Scott Case; decided correctly. Not ethically, correctly. Slavery is wrong but what was being argued is wether or nor he was property, he unfortunately was. What that means is that the SCOTUS has to evaluate the *CASE*, not the moral or ethical qualms that go along with it. They can not legislate from the bench; a la Scalia, Thomas and Ginsburg.

I will commend you on your research, it is very impresive and thorough, but you still only get one star. Congratulations, you earned it
  
here here
By JaredRaphael Jul 25th 2005 at 4:38 pm EDT
thank you for that. I'm sick of hearing men (never women) on this site and others talking about Roe like its just a distraction from the issues "we" should be focusing on.
  
hm...
By kaylamc Jul 25th 2005 at 4:42 pm EDT
i think simply the fact that more girls 16-24 died of septic abortions than anything else pre-roe denotes the importance of going before the court. and several states--less than 10 i believe--had legal abortion, but tell that to a 15-year-old-girl is lousiana who's have to hundreds of miles. yes, issues like parental consent in abortion do reach high courts more often, but it seems like the court recognized the national crisis regarding this issue and made the right choice in hearing it (and in the decision).

if that's what you meant.

(anyway, i am also sick at seeing the progressive men being pretty much willing to sell women out. if they were the ones getting pregnant, i doubt we'd fight these battles.)
ummm. No
By edhula3 Jul 25th 2005 at 6:58 pm EDT
I am sick of seeing reactionary progressive females (well really any reactionaries, but just them for the moment) who go, well a man can't have an opinion on abortion and if he has one that says the issue of Roe V. Wade should not have gone before the SCOTUS (it shouldn't, it is an issue to be decided by the states, from there it can be challenged in the SCOTUS, that modus opperandii was ignored here as in many many others) he is selling out women.

Do you even know what I feel about Roe V. Wade? No, other than I don't think it should have been heard by the SCOTUS b/c the Constitution says any powers not given to the federal government are to be decided by the states. Let me say FOR THE RECORD: The right of a woman to have an abortion is necessary.

Let me ask all of you; am I still "selling out women" or is it just that I will never "get it" because I am a white male?

On a side note, when you talk about 15 year old pregnant girls, aren't we missing the real issue that statutory rape is being committed and MEN are corrupting young women, that they are being seen as prey and left without a father for their child (more than likely? Or will I not "get it" this time as well?
well--
By kaylamc Jul 25th 2005 at 10:14 pm EDT
it's interesting that above me a male made the same statement and you took no issue of it. i never thought you were against it, and my comment wasn't regarding you; i know and know of a lot of males, especially leaders of this party, who aren't going to fight for it. i'm simply taking issue with your claim that it should be decided on a state-by-state level, because the political demographics in one's state shouldn't be involved in whether or not a woman can get an abortion. the only other medical procedure that i can think of that is governed state-wise off the top os my head is euthanasia in oregon.

and yes, statutory rape charges should be filed for the fifteen year old girl, but i don't really get the rest of your argument here--does that make an abortion unnecessary? i mean, prosecute the guy, but if the girl talks a clinic counselor and honestly doesn't want to have the baby, why make her?

and please don't call me reactionary. a post-roe world is becoming a clearer possibility every week, and i'm not sorry for being uncomfortable with that. and if i defend my rights and the rights of my gender fiercely, and maybe at the expense of males (although i have no idea what i said was wrong, and i know none of it is untrue), well, then, that's how it is.

and i AM of that opinion--that for men it's pro-choice or nothing. the supreme court thing as well, because honestly, and i do mean this with respect, you're never going to have to make that choice, so i would prefer it if you would either support the cause or leave it alone. hindering something that wouldn't effect you personally (i know your friend, sister, girlfriend might need an abortion, but your pain in that situation is different than theirs) is pointless.

i'm not saying that a guy has no voice--i think it should be discussed by both parties, when the guy's around. however, the woman makes the final choice.
STILL wrong
By edhula3 Jul 26th 2005 at 10:06 am EDT
the most egregious point: and i AM of that opinion--that for men it's pro-choice or nothing. the supreme court thing as well, because honestly, and i do mean this with respect, you're never going to have to make that choice, so i would prefer it if you would either support the cause or leave it alone. hindering something that wouldn't effect[sic,] you personally (i know your friend, sister, girlfriend might need an abortion, but your pain in that situation is different than theirs) is pointless.

Wow, I never knew you were opposed to democratic freedom of thought and expression. I never knew it was pointless to have an opinion, next time I have one I will float it by you to make sure it is compliant OK?

Second, if you never have to have an abortion, why is it something that you are concerned about, following your logic?

It should be decided by the states because it is spelled out in the Constitution to do so. I didn't know you were also opposed to the Constitution.

My point about the Statutory Rape is that it often goes neglected and many pro choicers seem to ignore the fact young women are being violated I think is a far more pressing issue because what we SHOULD be doing is decreasing the NEED for abortions. Not getting rid of them, but making sure they were not neccesary.

And the reason I made no mention of the previous statement from a male is because I don't think it is distracting us from the issues, it does not help the Democrats to keep shouting were for abortion every day.

And fear not about Roe V. Wade, if it is sent to the states, then at least 48 states would still allow it as every poll shows and check this website out:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-7_ 21_05_FH.html
...
By kaylamc Jul 26th 2005 at 6:29 pm EDT
while it seems entirely pointless to argue with someone who isn't respecting my point of view at all, you can have any personal view you want at all. don't care. but when you go about trying to do something governmentally about it, that's when i have a problem with you. and i'm not going to apologize for that.

my major problem here stems from my major problem with the movement: either someone has their pet "issue" and won't fight to support other causes to form a real cohesive movement dedicated to progressive issues, or someone is simply a member of the movement in general and doesn't care about causes (i.e., the top Dems who are willing to compromise on abortion with Roberts for--I don't even know what).

as for the constitution? your ad hominem attacks don't need to be validated, but i've got one on the wall right next to me. perhaps you missed it, but plenty of other things not mentioned there are state controlled. I'm familiar with the 10th Amendment, but name another medical procedure (besides euthanasia) that can only be granted on a state-by-state basis. And keep in mind there are laws about transporting minors across state lines. It's a necessary procedure. Also, there's no way 48 states would keep it legal. If you actually believe that, I've underestimated your intelligence and shouldn't have bothered trying to argue with you at all. Katha Pollitt, link below, makes a really excellent case and in her much more expert opinion--she specializes in this kind of thing--in only 20 states are abortion rights "secure". And I think that we can agree to the geographical isolation of the spots where it won't be.

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050801& s=pollitt
ok
By elainethefirst Jul 27th 2005 at 2:09 am EDT
i'm simply taking issue with your claim that it should be decided on a state-by-state level, because the political demographics in one's state shouldn't be involved in whether or not a woman can get an abortion.

Exactly.

Edhula, I think your comments have been out of line, whether you agree or disagree. Anyhow, fundamentally, the body that a child comes from is a women's. Trust me, if it was your body, you'd see it exactly how it should be seen too: as a medical decision. And even if you do think a man should have input on his partner's pregnancy (which he almost always does anyway), why should the state have input?
  
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