Post from Maw Blog:
Ahmadinejad's Latest Crime
Bad? Brilliant?
You can rate this post.
Register or login now and
tell us what you think.
Ah, that nutty, authoritarian Iranian President is at it again. Again, he's making his country look worse, playing into the hands of ultra-right neocons who want to "liberate" his country. A fool.

This time he is holding a conference on Holocaust denial. Link. Supposedly its because he believes in free speech. Really? What about all those dissidents he has put in jail? What about all the restrictions on music, internet access, and student groups? In Ahmadinejad Land, free speech is confined to the freedom to speak out against America.

Oh, and I think America, like European countries, should criminalize Holocaust denial. Agree or disagree? Its a crime to be so stupid, ignorant and / or racist that you deny one of the darkest periods in human history.

Reader Comments
  
Uh...
By Superduperficial Dec 12th 2006 at 11:04 pm EST
""Oh, and I think America, like European countries, should criminalize Holocaust denial. Agree or disagree? Its a crime to be so stupid, ignorant and / or racist that you deny one of the darkest periods in human history.
""

Completely disagree. (And yes, I do happen to be Jewish, but that doesn't make me more or less qualified to comment on the matter)

The biggest form of stupidity is thinking that the world would be better if only we could outlaw stupidity.

Governmentally mandating any understanding of history, even one that strikes most of us who are sane as obviously correct, is a step on the path to authoritarianism.

Look at Europe - it never, ever stops where you personally feel it should.

The solution to stupidity is not the banning of stupidity, it's freedom.
Re: Uh...
By jr Dec 13th 2006 at 11:33 am EST
That last line is just pablum, Joe. Freedom in no way cures or even lessens ignorance. Some misguided people even consider public education standards to be a hindrance to freedom.

Something you seem to be forgetting is that the path to authoritarianism, from where we are now, is really pretty long. Taking "a step," especially regulatory steps like educational mandates and laws protecting the historical record, is not always a terrible thing.

Keeping stupidity more permissable and excusable is hardly the formula for its eradication.
Re: Uh...
By timeforimpeachment Dec 13th 2006 at 3:24 pm EST
Agree. All SDF's argument boils down to is the slippery slope fallacy. "This might lead to this..." etc. This is the same thing Republicans opposing the New Deal argued in the 1930s - they said it would lead to communism and state socialism.
Re: Uh...
By Superduperficial Dec 13th 2006 at 11:18 pm EST
""Agree. All SDF's argument boils down to is the slippery slope fallacy. "This might lead to this..." etc. This is the same thing Republicans opposing the New Deal argued in the 1930s - they said it would lead to communism and state socialism. ""

First off, about 99% off the people who use the Slippery Slope Fallacy (yourself included) seem to know absolutely nothing about how it actually works.

Sufficed to say, sometimes the slope actually is demonstrably slippery.

Secondly, the idea that you'd want to ban speech if there wasn't a slippery slope - in other words, that you'd want to ban speech if only you could ensure that only speech which you strongly disagree with is banned - officially makes you a really creepy person.
Re: Uh...
By jr Dec 15th 2006 at 6:40 pm EST
Surely you're not arguing that we should be able to yell "theater!" in a crowded fire, are you?
Re: Uh...
By Superduperficial Dec 13th 2006 at 11:15 pm EST
""That last line is just pablum, Joe. Freedom in no way cures or even lessens ignorance.""

Indirectly, I would argue it does (Goes something like this - free societies become wealthier, and according to recent research wealth makes us behave more morally), but that's incidental - it's not what I was claiming.

The reason freedom is a solution to stupidity isn't that it makes people less stupid - it means you aren't dependent on them, so you can do as you please and not have to worry about them.

""Something you seem to be forgetting is that the path to authoritarianism, from where we are now, is really pretty long. Taking "a step," especially regulatory steps like educational mandates and laws protecting the historical record, is not always a terrible thing.""

Is it so long? I would classify Western Europe as a 'Moderately Authoritarian' region at present - and yet, they're the closest to being "where we are" out of anywhere in the world at the moment.

The idea of "laws protecting the historical record" is so unbelievably stupid that I'm tempted to not even respond.

But what happens once you get past the ones we can all agree on - what do you do about the Armenian Genocide? Nanking? Who gets their own law "protecting the historical record", and who doesn't?

Yeah, Turkey's laws "protecting the historical record" are working out really fucking well!

The last time we had laws to "protect the historical record", the result was the Scopes Trial.

The idea of legislating freedom of speech regarding history, even stupid speech, is utterly frightening bullshit.

""Keeping stupidity more permissable and excusable is hardly the formula for its eradication. ""

You think stupidity can be eradicated? What planet are you living on?
Re: Uh...
By timeforimpeachment Dec 14th 2006 at 9:28 am EST
Contrary to your inaccurate claim that Western Europe is authoritarian, you'll find that citizens there are actually quite happy. They only get mad when their leaders, like say Dominique Villepin (French PM) do so called "reforms" that bust unions, deregulate corporations, and remove vital social protections. And if Western Europe is so anti-democratic, why do their elections have significantly higher voter turnout than ours here?

Additionally I would argue that Western Europe is, in some ways, more democractic than The United States. There, many countries have elections with proportional representation, runoff votings, and national referendums.
Most countries have a central electoral commission that ensures full voting rights, unlike the U.S. system where partisan Secretaries of State have an unbelievable amount of power over the vote. And, best of all, they don't have an electoral college.
Re: Uh...
By timeforimpeachment Dec 15th 2006 at 9:37 am EST
**APPLAUSE***
you're reverting to form
By jr Dec 15th 2006 at 4:21 am EST
The reason freedom is a solution to stupidity isn't that it makes people less stupid - it means you aren't dependent on them, so you can do as you please and not have to worry about them.

Now there's an interesting fallacy--the idea that you are not dependent on your neighbors for your continued quality of life. That I find both prima facie absurd, and somewhat disappointing.


You think stupidity can be eradicated? What planet are you living on?

I don't think it can. But your previous sentiment sure as hell seemed to express support for the notion that it can. In fact, the phrasing you used seems to suggest that stupidity has a solution, which you vaguely defined as "freedom." It was, for you, a terrible piece of rhetoric. Just as disturbingly, the condescention coming from you of late has been, shall we say, excessive.

But I digress.

You're still essentially arguing that recognizing what is known as hard-and-fast fact through codification under the law is inherently a bad thing (I think that's the most nuanced generalization that can be made about your arguments to this point). I disagree. I think there's something to be said for preserving singular existential statements of fact when they face challenges that could dilute important areas of the historical record. Like "Biblical magnitude" important. Just as I don't mind the government claiming as an existential fact that the Declaration of Independence as approved by the Second Continental Congress was adopted on July 4, 1776, neither do I mind them claiming as existential fact that millions of Jews were systematically executed under the Nazi regime, ceteris paribus. The reason is that neither is taken as an article of faith--there is ample documentation confirming both events actually transpired.

In fact, I'm glad you mentioned the Armenian Genocide, because it undercuts your argument rather well. You're talking about an event that transpired about ninety years ago, meaning that most of the survivors are now gone and many if not most of the injustices committed then are now obfuscated within the historical record to the point where a grave breach of human rights is now a matter for debate. Because the historical record was not protected, there was enough room to fabricate alternate histories. But the Armenian case is less well documented than the Holocaust, which created huge piles of paper and photographic evidence to corroborate survivors' stories. We even found documentation of orders to destroy documentation. The primary sourcing on this horrible chapter is still recent enough to be recognized and verified for future students to employ in appropriate contexts. The fact that a genocide against the Jews occured under the Nazis to the rational mind at this time is, in a word, undeniable. I see no problem in theory with restricting the denial of the undeniable.

So the question for me is, is the Holocaust one of those rare historical occurences of such importance as to justify governmental intervention to preserve the salient and undeniable facts for posterity? I think so, given the incredibly long-reaching aftershocks it has already caused and will undoubtedly continue to cause. Much of middle-eastern affairs can be traced back, in some senses, to the effects of the Holocaust. The concentration of Jews into certain communities following the war and the ethnological impact that has had gains added significance when considered as a part of post-genocidal anthropological studies. I could go on and on (except for it being after 4 am and me being sleepy).

Suffice it to say, I don't think laws against Holocaust denial are necessarily part of the road to ruin. I don't think you've made the case that the implications of protecting singular existential fact are so dire as to preclude it from the realm of possibility.
  
Campus Progress

Please remember that Campus Progress' terms of use do not allow promoting or endorsing any particular political party or candidate for office. Posts or comments that do this will be deleted.

Campus Progress